2018-03-12 18:05:04  来源:网络6


techolah 於 1 天前 * 發表

In the UK there are private and public schools. The private schools typically have a more rigorous curriculum and the teachers are better qualified.


It's said that this enforces a class system in the UK, that the rich go to private, then go to better Universities, then send their children to private etc etc. ...


There's certainly some truth to this, but I don't really want to get into a "how to make everything equal for everyone" discussion.


What I'm interested is if people think that there's a greater chance for mobility within Chinese education. It's often said that the Gaokao is a leveller, that no matter whether a person is poor or rich if they do well on the Gaokao they can elevate themselves.


The issue that I have with this is that the same thing can be said for A Levels really. If someone is from a poor district in the UK and they do well at their A Levels then they can get into a decent University (sometimes the averages from their school location are taken into account and if they've done significantly better than other then this is factored in). Though I think a UK family having the attitude of elevation through education is probably less likely than a Chinese family.

对此我的问题是我觉得A Levels((英国大学入学考试的甲级考试)也有相同的效果。如果某人来自英国的一个贫穷地区,但是他们在Alevel表现良好,那么他们可以进入一个体面的大学(有时候他们所在学校的平均值会被考虑在内,且如果他们做得比其他人好得多,那么这个因素会被考虑在内)。尽管我认为一个英国家庭在教育方面的态度上可能不如中国家庭。

So the crux of this question is whether there's a greater chance for Chinese people to "climb the ladder" with the education system that they have. I don't think that comparisons between a farmer in the middle of no-where and someone rich in Shanghai are so meaningful here, even though I understand they're both in the same country and it could be an example of class. Instead - if there are examples of greater differences within the same city, that might be more suitable. For example - one could easily find these kind of examples for a city like London, or most cities in England.






–]zhaoshuyang 5 指標 1 天前

In China the competition on academic performance starts from PRIMARY SCHOOL! Before Gaokao, you have to work well on Xuequfang, Xiaoshengchu and Zhongkao! (Good primary school area house, primary->middle exam, middle->high school exam)


[–]techolah[S] 1 指標 1 天前

yeah, cheers. I'm mainly wondering about whether or not people consider there to be greater mobility provided by the Chinese educational system than the UK's.


[–]chikarico 1 指標 1 天前

Chinese people have long been proud of our unique ladder climbing examination system, namely keju originated in feudal period. But in reality,children are prevented from good school because of hukou and house price.


[–]Minos_King 2 指標 1 天前

Don’t the wealthy Chinese just send their kids to those same private schools in the UK (And US and Switzerland)?


[–]doodouu 1 指標 1 天前

Some of them choose to send their kids to international schools in china where there are less competitions, then send their kids abroad for college.


[–]Minos_King 1 指標 1 天前

Isn’t a foreign passport required to send a kid to an International school here? That’s what I was told anyway.


[–]sygedeUnited States 1 指標 1 天前

Some but not all. It's damn cheap to buy a foreign passport anyway. Pretty cheap in some cases


[–]Minos_King 1 指標 1 天前

Oh right. I assumed it was some law. Yeah I guess if you’re wealthy you can get yourself a foreign passport.


[–]sygedeUnited States 1 指標 1 天前

You don't have to be wealthy a Antigua passport only cost about 250k usd. That's pretty cheap all things considered


[–]fleetwoodd 1 指標 1 天前

There are two tiers of international schools.


[–]Minos_King 1 指標 1 天前

Ah ok I see. I’ll need to send my kids to school soon (Filipino and UK passports) Thinking of Chinese private school for elementary then if we’re still here International school for secondary education. That’s what teachers and other parents have advised.


[–]americarthegreat 1 指標 1 天前

Elite Chinese, no. They don't have to -- why pay for a private school abroad when taxpayer money is going towards giving your children world class education (according to PISA's standardized tests, which can't capture all facets of education)? Wealthy Chinese, yes.


[–]americarthegreat 2 指標 1 天前

There are the very elite schools but these are a fraction and are kind of hard to judge against.

But beyond that urban schools are way better than non-urban schools and first-tier are way better than non-first tier.


Shanghai teachers make enough money to buy new BMWs (in part through hongbao -- ie. bribes from parents to give extra attention to their child or even to give undeserved grades). The education is typically that good too -- these are the schools that you see on international rankings.


BUT -- a good half of families in first tiers are not able to attend those schools because they don't have the appropriate hukou -- a lot of students are required to pay a larger tuition to attend private schools which are much inferior in quality OR the students stay with their grandparents in a rural town or second/third tier city and attend school there.


But just having an urban hukou doesn't mean your student will be able to get into those schools. They only accept the most successful of students or the students of parents capable of paying the right hongbaos that keep their students in. I'll get to this more later.

Second tier and below -- educational quality degrades really fast.


So not only are you bound by your economic status your success is largely determined by where you were born.


Rural schools are absolutely atrocious -- often times teachers are practically volunteers (the official wages are laughably noncompetitive) with one to five teachers and a couple administrators taking on responsibility for hundreds of students' educations usually with no money to buy necessary educational materials like books or having separate classrooms (so multiple grade levels will all be taught in the same classroom simultaneously). Poverty is so horrible that most students drop out when they're first able to legally (and de facto they have dropped out long before that school just says they're still attending (ps -- this is where China gets their literacy rates from. It assumes that everyone that has attended mandatory education is literate and as pretty much no students are allowed to legally drop out so pretty much all Chinese are recorded as being literate regardless if they really learned to read and write in school or not)).


And even if everything goes right -- you have the right hukou you're not burdened by poverty you're in a city with a decent education system -- the Chinese school system is set up to only graduate the most excellent of students. The Chinese gov. rewards schools for having high scores on the academic tests especially the college-entrance exam (gaokao) but also the high school entrance exam (zhongkao). Because of this schools put a lot of pressure on underperforming students to just drop out so they don't drag the school's scores down and if you don't the school will juggle the lemon students (ie. students that would be considered average in the US) trying to pass them off to other schools where education basically doesn't exist but where checkboxes are ticked to make bureaucrats happy because they can say 99% of enrolled students graduate their school. On top of the pressure from schools if you're a poor family and your child doesn't score well on one of these tests there is a lack of faith you will ever be more successful than your parents so often times you'll just be pulled out of school and start your "adult" life. Maybe they're not wrong.


[–]techolah[S] 1 指標 1 天前

Thanks - the last paragraph sounds like the case that I'm most interested in. The comments about rural schools and such are valid I just think that there's such a huge difference that I can't really consider them in the same comparison.


“everything goes right -- you have the right hukou you're not burdened by poverty you're in a city with a decent education system”

This seems to be the most comparable with UK I think. Or easier to consider at least (of course I'm aware there are some people living in relative poverty in the UK before anything about that's mentioned).



So if we consider this case - would you think that there's a better chance for someone to climb the ladder in this system if they're academically capable ?


The quote driven stats nonsense that you talk about (having 99% enrolled etc) also exists in the UK system though I'm not sure whether it's as bad here as it is in China.


[–]americarthegreat 1 指標 1 天前

“This seems to be the most comparable with UK I think.”

Except.. it's not. Because I'd reckon a good 75% of the nation's students are not eligible for this (About half the nation being rural then about half of urban Chinese actually being "natives" of first tier cities the other half not having a native hukou). We're only considering the top 25% of Chinese here. So already 75% of Chinese children are disqualified from the latter by the very nature of their birth.



“of course I'm aware there are some people living in relative poverty in the UK”

And poverty in the UK is a completely different beast. Poverty in the UK is like -- oh shit I can't buy pudding this week and I might end up with my electricity shut off until my next paycheck. Oh well looks like I'll have to send the kids to school with PB&J. Poverty in China is like.. oh shit price of electricity went up a cent. I better start cleaning my house earlier now because I can only afford to run my light bulb for two hours a day now. If you go to the home of a migrant from a rural place -- you'll notice that a lot of them leave their lightbulbs out of their sockets when they're not in use -- because being a typical rural Chinese means you're scared the electric used by a lightbulb that's off might be a significant amount of electricity.



“So if we consider this case - would you think that there's a better chance for someone to climb the ladder in this system if they're academically capable ?”

So now we're looking at only the top 25% of Chinese who were born into favorable conditions. Mostly they'll end up in the same status as their parents are right now but just benefit from a much improved economy. Their parents were probably accountants they'll probably be an engineer. They'll live a life similar to most middle class Americans except a lot less luxury (ie. they might only own a middle-of-the-line Huawei phone and consider a laptop an unnecessary expense they could afford if they saved up but have no real reason to no car ownership etc.). The only Chinese that will "move up" from that are those with political connections. There is some limited people that are able to move up despite that but these are an extreme minority -- just those who score well enough for a fraction of the slots for the best Chinese universities like Tsinghua. To say this gives you a chance to move up is like saying that the chance to move up in the US is guaranteed because some students can get into Ivy League.



Despite all the competition for the gaokao I don't really think it gives students any better of a chance of moving up significantly between classes. I guess it might have a significant effect on whether you end up in the upper regions or lower regions of the middle class of urban China but it's not like it's going to give you a realistic shot into Chinese upper classes -- that it's a demonstration of China's meritocracy and reflect's "China's ancient custom of giving anyone the chance to become political elites if they study hard" is just a myth.


And this is the way China has been for a long long long time. An elite entirely decided by the whims of politics and political connections a fairly well-to-do class that provides for those elite and the rest of the population have 0 fucks given about them deemed as people born peasants to die as peasants with no fucks given to whether they really deserve that or not.


TL:DR; You chance of moving up in China because of Gaokao and education is pretty much the same chance you have of getting into Ivy League in the US. The rest is political connections.


[–]Tommust 2 指標 1 天前

While a high GaoKao score is great spaces at good universities are limited and have quotas. For instance Beijing students can get into Beida with a lower score than students from other areas.

You are more likely to climb the social ladder through a Western society's education than China's.

All the major cities in China have schools for students who have Hukuo for that city and then there are immigrate schools for students how don't have Hukuos. The quality between these can be huge. There are also international schools as well.


And like the rest of the world education is great but connections are better. If you want to "climber the social ladder" make better connections.


[–]Tommust 2 指標 1 天前

China's education is the bottom of the ladder up the climb as long as there is a good score you can go to prestigious schools and change their destiny.


Even if you have a top score in china there is no guarantee you will go to the top University.


Western education on the other hand is a stratification mechanism. Mass education only provides basic and limited education. To be an elite education must be purchased separately from the market and those who can not afford it are automatically eliminated.


Lots of middle class (upper and lower) and even some poor student are admitted to the Top universities in the UK. I'm pretty sure this also happens in other Western Education systems.

The article is interesting but IMO the conclusion is misleading.


[–]zhaoshuyang 1 指標 1 天前

I would say yes. The mobility is higher as a simple answer.


[–]techolah[S] 1 指標 1 天前

You would say that the mobility is higher in China ok cool.

Can you provide some reasoning / examples though? Otherwise there's not much for me to go on


[–]zhaoshuyang 1 指標 1 天前

The good schools are usually public not expensive and they recruite students by academic performance. The competition makes it like a traffic flow. If someone is clever enough to merge into the fast road in his childhood his future class is generally there no matter of his parents.


[–]chikarico 1 指標 1 天前*

I think it is not comparable between China and UK,I'm just trying to have a obxtive descxtion about Gaokao.


Gaokao is of significance for its high equality. Though corruption and fairness can not be eradiceted thoroughly Chinese people still view it as least bad system because of its uniformed and obxtive standard which enables students with high score to study in top universities regardless of their family wealth and social reputation.


However Gaokao is not flawless and has long been criticied for its regional discrmination for example students in Beijing are easier to be admitted by top schools than that in surrounding provinces like Hebei and Shandong for most of them are seated in Beijing they should cater to local government by setting lower standard for local students. That has cauaes lots of Gaokao Yimin(immigrant) who move their children's hukou to provinces with more educational resources.